Episode 31: From Blackout Drinking to Ayahuasca in Peru: Amy Devine's Road to Freedom

Amy Devine had her first drink at eleven years old. By her late twenties she was waking up on a flight to Beijing with a broken elbow and zero memory of how it happened. Today she's been sober since January 2023, runs the Sober Sisterhood Community, and helps other women put the drink down for good. This is the story of everything that happened in between.

Amy grew up watching violence in her home before the age of twelve, and alcohol became her relief valve not long after. What followed was over a decade of using drink to switch off — through university, through eleven years living and teaching in China, through a lifestyle that looked exciting from the outside and felt like survival on the inside.

She got sober. She relapsed. She got sober again. And it was only when she stopped trying to moderate — stopped trying to control something that was never going to be controlled — that things actually changed for her.

If you've ever told yourself you'll just have two and then had six. If you've ever promised yourself you'd cut back and then found yourself right back where you started. This one's for you.

What you'll hear:

• Why Amy says moderation is harder than just quitting altogether
• The moment a house guest sat her down and said the words nobody wants to hear
• What actually happened on that flight to Beijing — and why she still doesn't remember it
• Why her first attempt at sobriety didn't stick, and what her relapse actually taught her
• How she rebuilt her nervous system from the ground up instead of just white-knuckling it
• Why she believes community, not willpower, is what gets people through

Chapters:

 00:00 — Amy's story begins
 00:51 — Childhood, and her first drink at eleven
 05:32 — Moving to China and the party years
 10:34 — Alcohol as a coping tool
 14:53 — First AA meeting
 34:58 — The relapse, and what it taught her
 43:58 — Plant medicine and the turning point
 50:54 — Breathwork, community, and life now

Connect with Amy: 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/devine.breath/
Website: https://devinebreath.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode. Today's guest is Amy, a sobriety coach, breath work facilitator and founder of the Sober Sisterhood Community. And her road to going alcohol free wasn't a straight one. She got sober, she relapsed, and then she finally found her way back on her own. From waking up on a flight to China with a broken elbow and absolutely no memory of how it happened, to running her own business in Peru. We're gonna dive into it all and everything in between. Amy, welcome to the next chapter.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

No problem. Okay, so take me back to your childhood. A bit of context for my listeners, please. What was it like at home growing up?

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Okay, so childhood for me was pretty good up until I was about six. And then my mum got with a new partner who was very violent and uh abusive, and that resulted in me witnessing a lot of violence up until the age of 12 until he eventually set fire to our house. And that was the final that was the final straw. It was actually the best thing that ever happened because that's what caused them to actually break up. I think joyful and I've been able to connect to the nicer parts of it as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Okay, so it on your on your website, and I remember listening to one of your podcasts with Jimmy Fistle on After Hours, you said that when you were 11, you had your first drink. What do you remember about that first day and what was that memory like?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

So I remember being like I was in year seven, and I knew the we kind of hung out with the year eight, so it was cool. And they used to hang out behind this swimming pool, right? And we were all hanging out there, and then there was this young girl, she was a year older than me, and she had gotten hold of her stepdad's port. She was from South Africa, so it was this specific port. Anyway, she asked me if I wanted to try some, and we just kept drinking it and drinking it and drinking it. And of course, port is so strong, and I got so sick with it, and uh eventually I started like walking home, and my little brother's teacher found me on the roundabout and took me home to my door. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Oh, okay. Whereabouts in the UK was this?

SPEAKER_03 2:55

So this was in Tadley. This is where I was first born, just outside of Basingstoke.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to work in Basingstoke back in the day, actually. I said um Berkshire, isn't it? Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Uh Hampshire. Berkshire's next door.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Yeah, but later on I moved to Newbury after the house fire, and that's in Berkshire, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh, okay. So you said that your drinking got worse after your family moved to the estate when you were 14. What what changed there? Why why do you think the drinking sort of ramped up as you got into your teenage years?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Well, I think that so I remember I think we moved around the age of 13, and I knew there was kids in the park, they were smoking weed, they were drinking, and as soon as I started to feel what beer felt like in my body, it was like relief, and there was also people in this park that were willing to buy it for me from the shop. So I think it was just easier, and getting people to get it for me was easier.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Hmm. So there was a bit of peer pressure there, you think you were trying to fit in with the crowd?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

I think so, but I think I was the one drinking the most, to be honest. Yeah. I think they were more into maybe smoking weed and everything. It wasn't really of interest to me. It was just the drink for me, Foster's particularly.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Oh, okay. Fosters gone, that's a blast from the past, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

So did did you see drinking as a problem at that age, or was it just what everyone else was doing?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Well, I come from an Irish family, so drinking is a very common thing amongst my family. So I grew up watching it in the home. Uh yeah, it was very common, and it was kind of normal for me to see daily drinking.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Hmm. And it's it's part of the culture as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yeah, we've got quite a culture in the UK for drinking. So you went to uni as well. Did it was your was your drinking, was it really increasing at that point?

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah, well, I feel like I tried a lot of things before university. I I mean I was I'm pretty sure I was the only one on my estate that went to university at that point. I don't know why or how I ended up doing it, but um it just for the first time for a lot of people, like Freshers Week became the first time that they're really introduced to drinking this much. But for me, it just enabled me to continue what I've been doing for the last, you know, years. Um, but I do remember drinking more than my friends. They would just drink all nights out, whereas I would have cans in the house on a daily basis drinking.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Oh, okay. So can you put your finger on it now? I mean, looking back on all the work that you've done, why do you think you were drinking more than everyone else?

SPEAKER_03 5:49

I remember people would say, like, or I would feel a little bit insecure around my my housemates, and I'd just be like, that's what I do, that's what we do where I'm from. It's like an excuse. I kind of knew it was an issue, but I couldn't face not having that drink that evening. Um and I can see now that it's just my nervous system couldn't relax without it.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Hmm. So you were using it more as a coping tool to uh in social situations, or what or do you think it was more than that?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

I just associated the evening time, like winding down and having a drink. Like once my duties at uni were finished, that's all I could do. So if I wasn't required to be studying or be working, then I'd be drinking. Like if I had a day off, I'd be drinking early.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

So Yeah, it was any any excuse. That's what they say, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Any excuse, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Any excuse, whether it's a celebration, whether it just any reason we're having a drink and that's that.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yeah. And if anyone tried to tell me different, I'd be so defensive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

I don't even think I allowed myself to even think about it though, you know? Like underneath, deep down, I knew it was different to everyone else, but I had this strong protection over it because I was so scared of not having it.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah, yeah, it's that crutch, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

So you finished uni and you ended up in China. What what what happened there? So so what d degree did you do and what made you uh transition and and move out to China? That sounds like a real like a real big move. I mean, not many people do that, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Hmm. Yeah, so when I was at college doing my A levels, I studied psychology, sociology, and English language, I think it was. And I was only applying for university because my friends were, and I was in a relationship at the time with an older guy for many years, six years, and he didn't really want me to go. But I just thought, right, we're in the class now and everyone's applying for UCAS. So I I applied and I went, which was really shocking. But I kind of that was the one time I called my dad and was like, Dad, what should I do? And he was like, Go, and it was an amazing godlike opportunity, I feel. But um, yeah, so I went to university and I studied criminology because I think I was very interested in the psychology, I was very interested in the sociology because of the life that I'd lived. I knew it was a very traumatizing life, not like actively in my mind, but I think I was really interested in why I had lived this life. So my dissertation was on domestic violence and the effects that it has on children. And I remember sitting with my mentor, my tutor, and I was like, because I went through all the symptoms that children can get f from being brought up in this environment, and I was like, haven't got this, haven't got this, haven't got this. I was like, I'm not even affected by it. And I look back now and I was affected by all of these things, so I was kind of like just following my past, and I chose criminology because I was interested in the crime side of things, and yeah, so that was my degree, and looking back, it's just so funny how that was what I chose to study, and that was my opinion and everything. But I finished I was working at Pizza Hut on the weekends at uni, yeah, and uh when I finished my degree, I knew I wanted to travel. I was always interested in traveling. I had been to Spain and Turkey, places like that, and was so interested in the different cultures. So my plan was to move back to Newbury, transfer to the Pizza Hut there, save some money and go traveling. But my one of my best friends, he moved to China, uh, two of them from my school and did a TEFL. And he got me a job in China and he just asked me one day, like, okay, do you want to come? And I had like a half an hour interview. I had like I had barely any money in my account. I borrowed some off my friend for the flight and spending money, and there I was, and I moved there just to teach English. I didn't even have a TEFL. You at that point, they they needed you needed two years teaching experience and a degree, right? So I just had got my degree, but I didn't, there was no space for me to teach for two years. So they faked a degree for me and got me in that way. But later on, I ended up doing a teaching, my teaching license when I when I was in China and got the the full qualifications to teach in an international school. Uh but yeah, first of all, it was just teaching English and it was a huge group of us. There was about five of us from the same school in Beijing, and we'd just go out on weekends, and in Beijing it never sleeps, so the bars are open 24 hours if you if you want it.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

So oh okay, because I've never been to I've never been to China, I've been to Southeast Asia.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

But but yeah, I would assume that the drinking culture wouldn't be so big there, but maybe it's different in in in the big cities. I don't know. But but it was there was a lot of poverty in there then.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah, amongst teachers, the expat communities, and yeah, just local people in Beijing, really, like so many bars back then, dodgy alcohol, clubs, yeah. Whatever you like.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

So So your time in China, is that when you really noticed that that you had a problem, or was it sort of creeping up before that in in in uni, or was it always there and it it was just getting bigger and bigger?

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Or I think I went through stages, like sometimes it would get really bad and some sometimes it wouldn't, but like I just normalized it. I thought this is what I do, and I never thought I had a problem because I would compare myself to, you know, one of my best friends, he died from a heroin overdose, heroin and crack, and I would always compare myself to him because I wasn't taking heroin, I wasn't doing this. And I I just posted about it recently. One of the things he said was like, Amy, look at yourself. And I was so like shocked by that because I had the job and I could travel, I had money, I'd been all around the world and I had amazing friends, but it really got bad when I started taking antidepressants. So I started taking them because I was anxious, right? And I it didn't even come into my mind that I could be an alcoholic. Like it just didn't even come into my mind, couldn't even fathom that idea. So I started taking the antidepressants and then on nights out, started getting really drunk because of mixing the medication, and like I hit a couple of my friends, I became really angry, aggressive, and one of my best friends said, like, look, something's not right. And then I was started to think about it, and then I shortly after I broke my arm coming back to China after COVID, I lived, I moved in with a girl from Serbia, and Serbians are super straight. Like, they're not like you were fine last night, don't worry about it. She sat me down and was like, You have a drink problem. And for the first time, I was like, What? What do you mean? And I was full of shame because I think it was the day after I'd made loads of mess in the kitchen after coming home after a night out. I would like end up cooking loads of stuff, and because of this medication I was on, it would make me do really weird things. And I just felt this massive level of shame when she shared that with me. And she was a yoga teacher, and her yoga teacher was in AA. So she said, Look, I know this lady, and I can link you up with her. And I and I met up with her on that Friday night. And I think the reason why I met up with her was because of my people pleaser tendencies. I really wanted to make her happy. If it wasn't for that, I probably wouldn't have gone. So I'm actually grateful for those like codependent behaviours, people pleasing tendencies that I had at the beginning, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

So how old were you at this point, Amy?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

So that was back in 2021. So that was 29 years old.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah, so you're almost 30. Okay, so you're sort of late 20s.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

We we can't skip over the flight to Beijing story. You're gonna have to t tell us that one, please.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah, okay, so that was in okay, 2020. I went to India for Chinese New Year holiday. I went for two weeks to Goa, where I probably partied the most I ever have in my life. Um, but ended up staying because China started to come into this COVID situation, right? So I just stayed in India, ended up staying there for 10 weeks. I was kind of working online and at the same time taking loads of drugs, drinking in the morning. I was so anxious all the time. So I was drinking beer as soon as I woke up. I was in a really bad way. And then eventually we got stuck in a hostel. There were 22 of us, 17 days stuck in this hostel, eating the same thing like three times a day, and China closed the border. So I was like, right, I'm gonna have to fly back to the UK. So I flew back to the UK, had six months there, and of course, it was locked down there, and it was just drinking, drinking, drinking at home. We had a really hot summer, and uh yeah, so from there I was just waiting to get out and back into China. So as soon as it opened up, I got on the flight. And my biggest fear was, of course, being in quarantine. I had to quarantine for two weeks, and you know, I knew the the the state of the hotels people were being put in, and obviously, you can't buy alcohol, so I was like in the duty free, like I need to bring alcohol, how can I bring it in an amount that is gonna help me drink? Because at this point I was drinking daily again. So I bought like three big boxes of red wine, and I drank like half a box before I got on the plane. Like I I yeah, I just and then I popped a Valium because I would always pop a Valium on on flights, but you know, you shouldn't mix Valium with with red wine. And you know, I mixing mixing those two things has made me sleepwalk in the past, it's made me like do weird things in my sleep. So anyway, I I was knocked out, fell asleep, and then yeah, woke up the next morning and we'd just landed in Beijing, so I slept the whole flight, and my arm, I couldn't move my arm, and I couldn't get my bag from the overhead thing, so I asked someone to come and help me, and they helped me. And then I realized like I could not carry my bag, so someone helped me. So we had to go through the process of the airport, and then we had to get on a coach, so and which drove us to quarantine, and then there was this Italian couple there, and they said, 'Are you okay?' And I said, 'Yeah, well, I was also really hungover because I'd just drank all that wine and everything.' And they said to me, 'They dragged you to the back of the plane.' And I was like, 'What?' Apparently, I refused to wear a mask on the plane and went to the toilet, and yeah, they dragged me. So I was like, Oh my god, the fear started to come in because no one said anything. So I was like, So went into my quarantine room where I had to be stuck for two weeks, right? Not knowing if I was gonna get deported because I didn't know I was gonna get into trouble. And anyway, the arm was really, really sore, and it started to go black all the way up my arm, and there's like fingerprints all over my arm. And anyway, I I just thought, oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And then I started to feel okay, it's broken. So I was speaking to one of the people that worked there, he spoke English, just one of them. And I told him, Look, I need to go to the hospital. So they got me an ambulance. Uh I had to be in a separate ambulance because it was quarantine, and we drove to the hospital, and then I just walked into the hospital, which was just bizarre, seeing as like I'm in this quarantine. And they did an x-ray, and I'd broken my broken my elbow. So but I still don't know to this day.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Like I don't remember what happened or so so you have no recollec r recollection of that at all. That that part of the flight?

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Yeah, absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Wow. And did you manage to get any red wine into into quarantine so you could drink it or not?

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Yeah, I had like the remaining boxes, but in the or did I? Hold on. I think I I think I think I had one more box, maybe. Yes, I was drinking that. And then the guy that spoke English, I never even saw what he looked like because he was in a hazmat suit.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

And I was like, right, how can I get him to get me alcohol? Right? And he played chess. So he came into my room and because he asked it it if I wanted to play chess, which was totally illegal as well, like being in my room. Um, a sweet, like teenager guy. So he came in and we were playing chess, and I asked him to get me some beers, but they were like really warm. So they were disgusting, and like Chinese beers, so rubbish, it's like two percent.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Anyway, so he got me some beers, we played chess, but I remember I just felt so rubbish, craving alcohol so much, didn't even want the warm beer, but obviously I had no choice, and then eventually I had some days without it. But yeah, it was just really anxiety. I didn't know if I was gonna get get home to Beijing because I was four hours away where the quarantine was. And it was just really, yeah, nerve-wracking. I didn't know if I was gonna get deported, didn't want to say anything, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah. Well, it's made for a hell of a story though, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Yeah, because you don't you don't want to mess around in China, right? Like you can be seriously punished and put in prison. So it was, yeah, a very difficult moment. But a moment that was like, okay, something's up. But again, never thinking, I need help.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, just brushing it off, just saying this is who I am, yeah, and it is what it is, and just cracking on really. So you mentioned earlier about your first AA meeting. Could you talk us through that, please?

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yeah, so I met up with this lady, and it was a Friday night. I was really scared, and we met up for like a drink, a coffee, or whatever, and she came with her baby. She was like breastfeeding him, and again, I was like, This is so nice of you that you've come. And there was another guy there, friend, his name's Juan, he's now my business coach. And basically, we started talking. I told her the situation, and she was like, Yeah, I understand. And then she was like, Do you want to come around my house for pizza tonight? And I was like, Of course, okay. And then she's like, There's a meeting tonight around the corner. Would you like to come? I was like, Okay. So I went and I remember AA was on the door, and I was like, Oh my god. Like, I didn't even know what AA was, really. Like, a lot of people know what AA is, but I didn't really know what it was. And anyway, I walked in and it was a room full of people, and mainly, so there's Chinese meetings and expat meetings for English speakers. So obviously it was the English speaking meeting, and basically it's just a bunch of teachers, mainly, which I feel I'm quite lucky because I feel everybody's kind of like it felt safe, if that makes sense, to be there. Because I would usually get really triggered by drunk men, for example. Like I I think like the the AA meetings over here would be a little bit more like that. If that makes sense. So yeah, I went to my first meeting and people were sharing, people were joking and laughing and having fun and talking about being an alcoholic, and of course I was like, Yep, that's me, that's me. Shit, I'm actually like them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah. So you resonated a lot with what they were saying. Yeah, and I remember my hands were like sweating and hot, and my I was sat on the edge of the seat, and it was just Okay, so was that the first so after that meeting, was it was that the first stint when you got sober for the first six months?

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah, so that woman. Became my sponsor, went through the steps. I went to four to five meetings a week, and then on weekends we would do women's meetings like at coffee shops and stuff, doing step work, and yeah, that was it. AA for AA hitting AA hard for six months.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Okay, and then you relapsed over Christmas, is that right?

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yes. So my friend was like, I don't think you're like one of them, because you know, obviously in AA, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but there's a there's a way of speaking, and to people outside of AA, it can sound a little bit strange. And also a lot of my friends didn't want to accept that I was an alcoholic as well. And like the language I was using, like, I'm an addict, I've got a disease, it can be a bit too much for people. So one of my friends was like, Oh, I think you'll be all right. And I was kind of like trying to get him to give me permission to have a drink. So we went and had a drink, it was all planned, of course. And I had one drink, and then he was like, Right, let's go home. And I was like, What? But it wasn't like you know, have a drink and you're off to the races, it was like the the mind chatter, right? So then the moderation started, trying to moderate, obsessing how many can I have this time, and then Christmas came, and I remember on New Year, it was like, right, I'm gonna get some prosecco, but I'm gonna get loads of Sprite as well. So every time I have a drink, I'm gonna have half with lemonade, half with Prosecco. Like it was just I didn't I don't even remember what happened that day because I was so obsessed.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

I remember I didn't even get drunk because I was watching myself and everybody else was drunk, but I just remember it being such a heavy, dark energy then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

It's so that's getting you just it's it's just so exhausting, I think, isn't it? For people like us who are all or nothing, it is just so consuming and exhausting, and yeah, it just it just takes over your mind and you just overthink everything, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah. So that so that first attempt at sobriety and the relapse, what did that teach you?

SPEAKER_03 24:33

So the relapse got a great part of my story. Like it was what I needed because I didn't believe I was one of them, right? I knew, but there was a part of me that was like, I'm not one of them, making excuses, I'm not as bad as that. You know, I needed to relapse to see that I'm just the same. I thought I'd learnt my lesson. So it took me like a year and a half of moderating, of going back, always constantly watching. And then I went, no, it was November, and there's this amazing woman called Masuma Coachello. She lives in Beijing and she's a therapist. She also runs breathwork circles every Tuesday. So my friend, even though I was still drinking, I knew I needed something else, and I did not want to go back to AA. I was really just ashamed and didn't want to go back and be like, Look, I fucked up, I'm back. But I knew I needed to do something else. So my friend was like, Do you want to come to this meditation circle on Tuesdays? And I was like, That's weird, I don't want to do that. That's like sounds really terrible. Anyway, I went in the end, and that became kind of my weekly circle. But I was still drinking and I started doing therapy with this lady who who knew I needed to go back to AA. But it took me like, yeah, a year and a half. Every therapy session would just be like, I need to go back to AA. I know I do, but I can't. Um, and then Masuma, she ran a Masuma and Jenna, they ran a program through Annie Grace's This Naked Mind, the Alcohol Experiments. They did it for a month. And I was like, okay, I can get sober and I don't have to go to AA and I can do it with people I know. So it was one month, the month of November. It was it was easy for me to just stay sober for November. And then when December came, I was like, shit, what am I gonna do now? So it proved that I needed a group, right? And Christmas time, I went to a southern island in China and I smashed it. I got so drunk, and I remember just drinking red wine, a lot of red wine, and then I was like, right, I have to stop this. And it was January 1st, 2023, and I knew I'd proven that I can't do it by myself. It was a it was a great opportunity. So January 1st, I made the decision, and I didn't want to go back to in-person meetings, so I went online. I found a new sponsor online in the US, and then eventually went back to to meetings in person, but I got that clarity that I needed that I can't do it on my own, and that I am an alcoholic, and that it only brings damage and pain to my life.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

And you were still in China at this point, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Still in China, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yeah, and you were there for 11 years in total.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

11 years, yeah. One year I left. I lived in Vietnam for a year, but then I I went back. That was in 2016.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Oh, cool, okay. Yeah. So moderation, trying to explain it to people, okay. I know it's a tough one. Why doesn't it work for people like us, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 27:41

So moderation is something that marketing uses, right? It's something like everything in moderation, like, you know, but people that are addicts or you know, alcoholics, moderation is impossible because we're addicted to it, right? So it this goal for most people, and I see it with my clients, most women, they really want to be able to moderate. But for people like us, I feel moderation is worse than just being a drinker, you know. Moderation is like we discussed earlier, is exhausting trying to moderate because we can't. And the moments we're not drinking, we're thinking about it. And then the moments we're drinking, we're thinking about it. It's an obsession of the mind, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah, and it really for me, it was just quieting the mind. There was like I've I've got ADHD and it was just it's just it's just the noise, it's just the noise in the in the brain and all the distractions. And I just remember I just remember getting that first dopamine hit and getting that rush, and it just quietens everything. It quietens that horrible noise and and it's instant, right? So it and it's easy and it's readily available everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Exactly, yeah, and it's it's it's calming that relief that we're holding inside the body, right? So we want more and more and more and more because it's so difficult to just live day to day without a substance that's gonna numb that pain inside the body. So why would you want to moderate when you can drink all the time and not feel that pain, you know?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yeah, it's big. I put the blame on marketing and the society that we're conditioned into thinking that moderation is is is possible for people like us, but it's not.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, a lot of people will say to me, they'll say, but Luke, you say in your personal development and self-development stuff, you say about balance. So why can't you just balance, why can't you just balance the drink? Why can't you moderate like a lot of other people? And it's it's a really tough one to explain, isn't it? Like the difference between moderation and balance, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Yeah, I think like a lot of things you can have in moderation, but when you're addicted to something like alcohol, it's literally survival. So you're trying to survive, and it's like if I don't get this substance inside of me, this alcohol, I'm gonna die. So it's like, you know, yeah, what's the better option? Dying or drinking?

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah, that is what it feels like.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

So yeah, it is. And I mean, it sounds so extreme to to a normal person who can just have one or two, but to us, it's it's it's not. Yeah, same true.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

And I think it really helps, like in AA having these things like, you know, we have this disease, and you know, it it was really helpful at the beginning to to understand that for me, that I'm different to everybody else, and you know, it's not an option for me. But some people can moderate things that aren't addicts, you know. Like I try and look at myself with I mean, I'm not very good at moderating many things, but it's like that's the ideal, and it can actually be quite offensive to someone that's an addict because we can't moderate and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yeah. It's it it's accepting it, I think, isn't it? It's being it's being honest with with yourself and saying, look, I can't moderate. I've tried for years, because so many people, people that I were with with as well, they've tried to moderate for years and years and years, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work for them, and they're a lot better off by just staying away from it completely.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

So yeah. I'm so ha I'm not in that anymore. Like I think I'd rather drink than moderate.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't have it both. It's just it's one or the other, and that's it. So what led you to plant melison?

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Melison. Okay, so when I got sober again the second time around, I I went back to AA. But I started to I started to realise that these thoughts and these beliefs around having a disease and being being broken, right? Because that's what you kind of are in recovery in these in these meetings, and it does help in the beginning, like I've said. But I had really low self-esteem, and especially, I mean, for men and women, but I find that women just feel they're completely broken, right? Hence why they people please and things like that. And so again, my circle that I was going to, the breathwork circle, one of the women in that circle, she had tried plant medicine. And I followed Gabor Mate a lot, and I watched his documentary, The Wisdom of Trauma. And he, I don't know if you've seen that documentary, but it's about addicts, and he goes into Canada, and he actually sent sat at the Temple of Light in Peru and went and yeah, I just followed his journey, and I just had this feeling like I need to do this, right? So I got sick, I was sober for six months, and I got a contact in the in the UK that was serving the medicine, and I was very scared because I knew I needed AA. It's life or death, right? If I don't have AA, I'm I'm gonna drink again like I did before. So I was very cautious about who I told in AA because they don't uh really accept plant medicine, even though the writer of the big book was taking LSD in psychedelics to help him get sober. So I yeah, so I knew that I could have one or the other. So anyway, I went to this ceremony in in the UK in Wales, and it was two different plant medicines. It was ayahuasca and Wachuma, which is a cactus from Peru. And they call ayahuasca the grandmother a very feminine plant, and Wachuma is a very masculine plant. So it was you take both of them, and my biggest fear was am I gonna get kicked out of AA? Am I still sober? Right? And at the very end of the ceremony, this guy, this couple that was there, uh, this guy came to speak to me, and he he, I mean, it was just so funny that it was him, but he came and opened up and I told him my worries about you know being in recovery and I I I don't know how to tell my sponsor because I kept it from her. And then of course it's more dishonesty, which is the opposite of what the program is. And he said, Have you ever heard of PIR? And I was like, What's that? And it's a a recovery group called Psychedelics in Recovery. And I was like, What? And he's like, Yeah, so it's like AA, but you're allowed to use these medicines in a guided way, right? Like it's not like you're taking these medicines and and the the difference is it's not like you're taking the medicine and you're having a good time, it's the absolute opposite, probably the hardest thing I've ever to done. So, anyway, he told me about this program, and I went and joined that program, and I found a new sponsor, and uh because I knew that this plant medicine had changed my life so much, and yeah, the ayahuasca completely kicked my butt. It just showed me a story of my life, right? But most of all, it allowed me to hold myself in compassion for the life that I'd lived and be with that younger part of me. But it also gave a lot of compassion to, you know, the man that was abusive in my in my family. But again, in the medicine, I was kind of bypassing the pain of what he brought to my life. So you can you you really need to like work with an integration therapist and everything to get to to get to the the root properly. But yeah, ayahuasca and it showed me my hangovers, right? So I spent most of my ceremony feeling nauseous, and it was just a flashback of every single hangover that I'd had, and I just got this amazing amount of clarity, and also the the medicine really shows you what's going on in the world with the Matrix, and it taught me about the system and about how these medicines have been obviously you know taken away from us because it allows us to see the truth of what's going on, and obviously, big pharma making money out of medicines and things like that, where um it just gave so much, and then the Watuma, which was the next day, it's it's also known as San Pedro, the cactus. The the white people named it San Pedro, and uh that medicine was all about okay, what should I do next? Because I know I had one more year left in China, I knew that my time there was done, especially after seeing like the Matrix and the 9 to 5, the school system was working in a school, and I could just see how it's just damaging kids. I mean, I know it sounds quite extreme, but it is, and the way that this system is in place for capitalism, and you know, so I wrote down like what am I here to do? And I wrote down breath, and I'd been attending this breathwork circle, um, and I was like, wow, okay. So I went back to China and I spoke to this lady, Mass, who was running these circles, these retreats, and she also wanted to do a breathwork certification, even though she was doing retreats and breath work, she wanted to do this certification. So we found Alchemy of Breath, and it was a nine-month programme online, and I had that, I had a year left. So I spent that time focused on that, and this medicine journey just it's like it just took any need for alcohol out of my system. It was like taken out, and being focused on this course also allowed me to, yeah, to to kind of stay focused, but also I think once you know, you know, right? And also alcohol is is a spirit, so I was kind of working on like seeing that anyway. Just becoming into a new community, right? A new community. Community is so important, and then I had my PIR sponsor online, I was going to meetings, yeah, and then that's kind of that is that is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

So that was from one like one retreat in Wales. In Wales. You went through all of that and you had that spiritual awakening, really. Would you call it a spiritual awakening?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

How how how how long was that retreat for then? So it was just three days. So we arrived on the Friday, and then ayahuasca usually do it at night time. And then the next day we did the Wachuma, and the next day we went home. So yeah, really, really short amount of time. But it took like a good year to integrate all of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah. So after so straight after that retreat, you did a nine-month breath work practitioner course, if you like.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

So what does it feel like day to day after that retreat and getting the alcohol out of your system, like you said, and seeing seeing the world for what it is. What does it genuinely feel like to be at peace and not just white nutling there every day? I mean, do you feel like you can you're a completely different person now to what you were before that retreat?

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Yeah, definitely. I feel very grateful that I I went for that. I feel really grateful that I sat with the medicine because I think it would have taken me years otherwise. And now because I'm working with addicts, alcoholics, women, running a community, honestly, drinking never comes into my my mind. It's just there's other things, right? Sugar, things like that. Coffee. But yeah, I mean, coffee for me, no, but sugar, I mean, coffee's coffee would make me anxious, so it's not really, but like cacao, I drink a lot of cacao and sometimes I have to like pipe down on that. But like alcohol, yeah, like if I wanted to drink tomorrow, I couldn't. What about my clients? What about my community? Like, it's just not a thing. Also, I live in a spiritual community here in Peru. I know that sounds a little bit culty, but no one drinks here because everybody's on the path.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

And like ecstatic dances, events, alcohol isn't allowed in. And I've also done a few ceremonies since being in this on this land. And actually, that very first ceremony, I met a I met two couples actually that are very, we're still very, very close. And one of the couples lived here in Pisac, Peru. And uh when I left Beijing, the plan was to go to Thailand and do breath work. But I ended up speaking to them again, and I thought, right, I want to sit with the medicine again, continue my journey with it and f you know, heal more. So that's that's how I ended up here. And yeah, like what I've shared recently about moving to Mexico, there's also another community there that I've already gotten to know because I spent a month there back in in April. And these are communities where alcohol's not no one drinks because they understand. They understand what it is. And in a ceremony that I did here, the shaman was literally pulling the spirit of alcohol out of my body on a physical level. He said it sucked me down. So it's way more than we think it is.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah, it is. It yeah, it it's fascinating. Talking to someone like you who has been who have been through these retreats, who have had that spiritual awakening, it's something that I find fascinating, and it's definitely something that I wanna that I want to look into. And I've and the more and more people that I meet in communities like this, they've they've done it and and they say it, well, it is literally life-changing, just like it's been so life-changing for you.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Yeah, and you realize that they are medicines, you know, like even alcohol is a medicine, and it's used in ceremony in particular like in different places, but of course you can abuse it. And like ayahuasca, for example, is a medicine, and Wachuma, and they're all plants, mushrooms, incredible medicine, because it shows you the truth. Yeah, yeah, I think alcohol just dampens it and numbs you, just suppresses everything, really.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

It does.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Like you said, wait when you know, you know. One of my first clients messaged me recently, and I'm gonna get him on the podcast soon. He's coming up to a year or so now. And uh yeah, and that's what he always says to me he whenever he messaged me. He says, Luke, when you know, you know. And it is so true. If it it and it brings true for for everyone, for everyone who's who's been, yeah, just just drinking for for literally decades. It takes over their life.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

And then, yeah, once once they go sober, once it's a huge manipulation, and people are not even aware of it, especially in the UK. It's on on the TV everywhere, and it's on purpose. They do it on purpose to keep you numb, to keep you low frequency, and all of these beautiful, incredible medicines are on offer, and that of course they they make them out to be the worst thing in the world when they're not.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

It's just like earth, like the plants, like especially what you are. It brings you back to our true nature, which is nature, right? It's like the trees, the earth, and what we're here to do. And we're here to grow spiritually, but like come back into our heart. And all of these like alcohol and like drugs that are made are just keeping us away from these things.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Yeah, because we're all connected.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

So tell me more about the uh the sober sisterhood community. What are you actually trying to give women about your work with, Amy?

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Okay, so addiction is isolation, right? And can we have to heal in community, it's impossible. I know it because I've lived it. And basically, once I did the breathwork course, I knew that from working with a business coach that it was women, it was like people like me that I wanted to to help, right? And it's funny looking back now because it's just kind of all just fallen into place. And I had a few women friends anyway that were sober. And I thought, right, do you want to breathe together online? And we started doing it. And it was, I mean, breath work is incredible. It relaxes the nervous system and it allows you to to build this safety in the body, which we've never had. So I started leading these sessions and then I was like, right, let's start making an actual community for this. So we were a community on school and we meet online every other Sunday because we've got women all over the world. Still a very, very small community, really nice and intimate. And uh we meet online, we do a sharing circle, just like in recovery groups, but there's no kind of rules. You're kind of just expressing what you need. And we have guest speakers, but the guest speakers are mainly focused on like how they did it and the tools that they used. And then we go into movement and breath practices, and the breath work is just totally incredible. And I feel that is the missing part in AA because we need to heal from the inside out, right? There's so much in our head, and all of the trauma and things that we've went that we've been through are stuck in the body. So the breath allows us to move through that and come back to our true essence, our heart, and remembering breath work is a little bit like plant medicine. It's coming out of the mind and into the body.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

I've had breath work practitioners on before, and I always ask this what would you say is the difference between meditation and breath work? How would you define them? How are they different?

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Yeah, okay, so meditation is an incredible tool, right? But people with a lot of trauma and dysregulation in their body, like a lot of addicts, well, addicts have dysregulated nervous system, sitting still for them is agony, right? So the breath eventually like the breath moves all of this energy. And the end goal is to be able to sit in meditation, to be with sensation. And even breath work can be avoidance, right? We've got yoga, movement, the gym, we've got sisterhood, we've got all of these things. They are all also moving us away from ourselves, but they are incredible tools, right? So it's really important that people have that understanding as well. The goal is to be able to sit in meditation and to be with those sensations. But for people at the beginning of the of sobriety, it can be very, very different. So breath work allows us to build this safety in the body because it literally relaxes the vagus nerve, right? And it and it releases tension from the body so that we can then build this vessel that's able to sit in meditation.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

So so so it's a good gateway to to um practice getting your body and your mind ready to be able to meditate.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Yeah, and I mean, like in my sobriety days, as soon as my eyes were open, I was breathing for 15 minutes a day. I had to have it. Breath work is like the missing piece, I feel. Um, and then you can go into meditation as well. You know, if the mind is very, very busy, it's hard to sit there and it takes practice. But yeah, for anyone in early recovery, learn to do breath work first and then medic meditation and be very gentle. It's a slow process. But yeah, meditation and meditation's the goal, I feel. Yeah, and I think and just being able to sit with sensations, and the thing is a lot of us are really scared of being abandoned, right? This is our main fear, no matter who you are. So when we learn how to sit with these sensations in the body, and we can be compassionate and kind to them, like, okay, I feel like I'm being abandoned. That's the real meditation to me, like being with the sensations. Because you can also disassociate in meditation.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. It's for for a lot of men that I work with, it's it's being enough, I think.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

So many men, you know, they're self they haven't got that self-worth, they don't think they're enough. But yeah, when you do the inner work and you and you learn to love yourself, then then like the world's your oyster, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Yeah, for sure. It's like the not enough wound, right? I feel, yeah, men, men have a lot on their plate, right? Because also women expect them to be everything these days. And I said this earlier, the emotional one now, the provider, the protector. You got a lot on your plate, right? So, like, yeah, being not enough, that's that's also a program being not enough from again society. It's in everything. You're not enough. You know, wear this makeup, do this, do this, do this, do this. It's like you're not enough. And it just being kind to ourselves is literally a program installed into our nervous system. It's like lack of consciousness, not enough, not enough, not enough. And yeah, as as long as we can like spread the message that this is something that everybody's affected by because it's you know, intentionally put into everything that we do. The radio, the TV. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and social media definitely definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yeah, yeah. It's you've got to have a lot of patience as well. I think I I think you touched on it earlier. It's yeah, it's having a lot of patience because so many people will will listen to this, they'll be curious, and they'll try breath work, they'll try meditation, it won't work, and they'll say, Oh no, that's just a little old woo-hoo, I won't bother.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah, yeah. I really feel like doing it in community is really amazing. And having your own practice as well. And I'd say to anyone that's like getting sober, a morning practice is key. Like, I literally AA taught me that. Get on your knees and ask for help, and that's one of the biggest things that we struggle with, right? And yeah, having a breath work because the breath is literally the gateway to your your body calming down, right? And the mind. So, and that's what feeds into this addiction all the time.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Yeah, it's all about being content and being present in yourself. So, so true. So, anyone listening to this, Amy, who that are sober curious about going alcohol free, about going sober, what would you say to them? What what's the first thing that that they can do?

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Hmm. So the first thing they can do is ask for support from someone else that's already sober. That would be the first thing. Reach out. We have to reach out. We can't do this on our own, right? And if there's fear there, just observe it in the body. Okay, I'm fearful of this. This is not something that you're used to doing. So reach out to someone else that is a little bit further along. If you're a woman, reach out to a woman, maybe a man reach out to a man. I feel that that's quite important. Not forever, but I feel like in the beginning. And find a community. And if you don't resonate with AA recovery groups, find a different community. Now, my community is rooted in nervous system healing. And this I feel is the missing piece in recovery because we have to heal from the inside out. I feel general recovery groups keeps you stuck in this disease addict. So basically, reach out, look for some support, find a community that you resonate with. And if you're a bit worried about it, that's normal. This is something completely different. Yeah. And find a breath work practice, like do it every morning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Yeah. I feel I really do feel that breath work is really starting to take off now. It's becoming more as people become more and more self-aware and they see and they see the link in between the the mind and the body and the nervous system, it's really, really catching on, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yeah, and also a but a good point is like you can read all the books, you can listen to all the podcasts, you can go to the meetings, but you have to heal from a body level, from the inside out, and you have to go back and you have to reparent that child that didn't get the support that it needed. And it doesn't go on forever. I mean, the relationship goes on forever, but you don't feel this shit for long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, yeah. It's tough in the beginning, obviously, going going back over it all, but in the long run, of course, you're you're gonna heal yourself and on the other side of all that hard work is is some uh you know that can be really, really special. But yeah, it's all about yeah, it's all about ha being patient and working through it.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

So Amy, if you could go back and speak to your younger self, what would you say to her?

SPEAKER_03 53:10

I would say it's okay, it's gonna work out, don't worry. And you know, I'm always really speaking to her by mothering her and loving her and giving her this kind of safe hug that she didn't have because she felt so alone all the time. Yeah, I would just tell her that everything's gonna be okay and just keep asking for help.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

What does the next chapter look like for you then, Amy? Um, where can people find you? I'll put all your bits and pieces in the show notes anyway.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Thank you, Luke. Um worries. Yeah, so the next chapter for me is I'm moving on to Mexico. I'm currently in Peru, but um I'll be back in Peru next summer for the Sober Sisterhood Women's Retreat. We're coming to the mountains here, holding a seven-day retreat. So I'll be based in Mexico, but I work online with my clients. I work one-on-one with clients through the Numb No More program, three-month program to help you put the drink down and rewire your nervous system. And also, what comes with that is the Sober Sisterhood community on school. And on there, we've got all the breath works, all the recordings, all the resources that you need to get started and stay connected to other women on the path. So, yeah, the two programs I have is Numb No More, the one-on-one, and the Sober Sisterhood Breath Work Circle, and they go hand in hand together. You can find me on Instagram, Divine Breath, and my website is divinebreath.com.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Brilliant. Okay, so why are you going why are you going to Mexico if you don't mind me asking, Amy?

SPEAKER_03 54:49

So I think it's time it's time for some heat.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

Are you up are you up quite high in the in the yeah, yeah, really high. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Oh, okay. I um I backpacked around uh South America back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did uh I uh I yeah, I flew into Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Brazil. Yeah, I went all uh I went pretty much the whole way around, yeah. Uh absolutely amazing, six six months. And um yeah, I I I did the Inca trail and I did Machu Picchu and Cusco and yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely amazing. Pardon?

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Have you sat with plant medicine before?

SPEAKER_02 55:35

No, no. So this was a this was a long, long time ago. Yeah, I was how old was I when I was in prayer? I would I would have been in my early twenties, so yeah, I was still I was still heavily drinking and partying and I wasn't thinking about any of this sort of stuff then.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

But uh World Rover hostels. Did you go to those?

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Oh yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Yeah, yeah. I did a South America trip also when I was drinking, it was wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah. No, no. No, it it's an amazing country, and yeah, but I I backpacked around Mexico as well. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, that whole area. But yeah, it's it's definitely a lot warmer in Mexico, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 56:12

Yeah. It's funny because it's really warm in the day in the sun, but obviously at night and in the morning it's a bit chilly. And I love Peru, so I think I'm gonna be like Peru, Mexico.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Oh, that's brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Amy.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Your your story is it is absolutely fascinating. I mean, obviously, tri traveling the world as well, all the you know, this this podcast is all about courage, it's all about taking that risk, stepping out of your comfort zone, and writing that new chapter. And uh you like your your journey. I mean, you know, you've you've been right through it, you've obviously lived all around the world as well. And uh yeah, it's a fascinating story, and I just thank you so much for sharing it. And I know it's gonna help a lot of people, and obviously the work you're doing, you're helping people, and it's it's yeah, it's brilliant. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom. I've learned loads, and uh yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Thank you so much for having me, Luke. What a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

No worries, Amy. Thank you.